There are developments.
The Times of London published a letter signed by “prominent figures” in the UK world of arts, business, politics and journalism urging that there be no new restrictions on the Vetus Ordo, the Traditional Latin Rite.
This is an echo of the letter to Paul VI, the famous “Agatha Christie” letter which gained for England the “indult” (which apparently was never needed) to continue to use the TLM.
The new letter has some 40 signers including quite a few names that even Americans might recognize.
There are conflicting rumors now about the text of the alleged document that would smash down mostly diocesan priests and the people they serve. The uber-liberal La Croix claims that there is no such document or intention. If they say there isn’t, there probably is one. One of my sources said that something will be issued on 16 July and that it will restrict also bishops from using the Pontificale. So much for bishops being bishops.
However, another strand of speculation in this which I have heard is also found at The Pillar. My emphases:
One Vatican official told The Pillar that some proponents of new measures to restrict celebration of the TLM were not aiming for complete and total suppression, which they termed “practically unworkable,” but rather a kind of “quarantine.”
“The thinking, and some will put it in these terms, is to ‘force them [traditionalist Catholics] onto reservations,’ with [NB] everything that goes with that kind of imagery.”
“Taking them out of diocesan life, driving them into little pockets around things like the ICKSP, the [Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter] and even the SSPX [which is in irregular communion with the Church] would take them out of local bishops’ hands,” the official said.
“For the ones pursuing ‘maximum TC’, it would be a welcome relief,” he said. “And for those bishops who have been pushing back [by seeking to make space for traditionally minded communities] it would take the whole issue out of their hands.”
Did you get that?
- Take it out of the hands of the bishop.
- Quarantine.
- Force them onto a reservation “with everything that goes with that kind of imagery”.
THAT’s the key phrase.
First, what goes with forcing people onto reservations? First, it signals oppression, dishonesty on the part of those doing the forcing, lack of justice, condescension and contempt.
Next, it means “sovereign nation”. Reservations run under the federal government, but they are in many respects autonomous. It is not for nothing that Native Americans, forced onto reservations, are called “nations”. These once oppressed peoples now have massive casinos, to which thousands of people drive or are bussed so that they can leave lots of money.
What this sounds like in ecclesiastical terms is “Ordinariate”.
I don’t know how viable that idea is in a time when Opus Dei got the stuffing kicked out of them, pastorally, and the Sovereign Order of Malta was mercifully taken over in a coup d’état, smallest nation against smallest. Does that seem like the pattern that would see the establishment of an Ordinariate?
It could, since it would accomplish a lot of anti-traditional agenda, give relief to bishops who really would rather not be involved (to their detriment as well as to their flocks – stick with the 99, right?). It would avoid being the ecclesiastical version of Baba Yaga.
As a matter of fact, it would make you look pretty good! You could be hero man instead of that guy.
Ordinariate? I’ve spoken with canonist friends about it. I’m all for it. It could be done.
MEANWHILE, as of 1 July, Feast of the Most Precious Blood, this is what I am doing.
At the offertory of Holy Mass, when I put the few drops of water into the chalice, I attach to those drops this intention:
For the preservation of the Vetus Ordo and the spiritual protection of the people who desire it.
I still pray a Memorare for the conversion of heart of those who have been attacking the Traditional Roman Rite.
There is cause for concern. There are signs of conflict. There are tough times ahead.
We have our spiritual and material resources.
I mentioned home chapels and posted a tweet with photos of what people had already created.
Today, someone sent a photo of his home chapel. I wish mine were as nice! Well done!
A nice touch is the staggered candles. We see in the Roman Missale for how to incense the altar…
Notice how they guide the eye to the LORD.
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Reservation of Salvation! Has a ring to it.
“Take it out of the hands of the bishop.”
Practical authority is derived from active leadership. Divesting yourself of active leadership causes… well, look no further than 19th and early 20th century monarchies.
“Quarantine.”
Last time we got quarantined attendance numbers went up as a result…
“Force them onto a reservation “with everything that goes with that kind of imagery”.”
I like your analogy here Father, with the added difference that the ‘I Can’t Believe It’s Not Springtime’ (TM) crowd, unlike the historical US federal government, is not ramping up a behemoth industrial economy, but is “managing the decline” instead.
I’m less convinced we’re really playing 3D chess here, when the opponent starts to eat the pieces…
The Roman Empire tried. The Mongolian hordes attempted. The Muslim armies made an attempt. So did the Ottoman Empire. Stalin and the Soviets failed. All of these powerful forces tried and failed to destroy Christ’s Church. NONE WERE SUCCESSFUL! broGOglio and his minions will fail miserable also. Pray to the Blessed Mother the Rosary—use this as the sword and shield. Confession! Clean souls are Uber soldiers in this battle. DO NOT DESPAIR! Desperation is the dark one’s breeding ground. We are on Earth to prove to God we are worthy…don’t do anything stupid to hurt your standing with God, AND now is the time to stand and PROVE YOURSELF to the Almighty!
I personally hope for full-blown sui juris church, but I’ll take Ordinariate.
I don’t see an “Ordinariate” solution as workable, but rather as a shiny rhetorical object to keep people distracted and from fussing.
The situation is that you have diocesean priests Fr. A who says TLM privately on the weekends, Fr. B who says it on Sunday as one of his three Masses, and their bishop Bp. 1 keeps Rome out of their hair. Then you have Fr. C who says TLM privately in secret because his bishop Bp. 2 hates TLM. Then there is Bp. 3 who now and then says TLM himself. On top of this is a good amount of laity, some of whom are trained and hold degrees, who are “reform of the reform” whose entire life mission is to get their local NO to be like the TLM or to fully get the TLM on their parish’s schedule.
An Ordinariate would sunder dioceses by transferring Frs. A, B, C and Bps. 3 and possibly 1 to the Ordinariate. But what if they still want to say the NO? Would they be permitted? It would be an unworkable mess and trample all over the consciences of clergy.
They will go just for an outright ban aimed at the episcopate. That is really all that is left as TC already has the sunset clause in it for diocesean priests saying TLM. You don’t need another papal document focused on priests.
And what does it do with diocesan priests and Religious who offer the TLM. It says the Church doesn’t give a dang about us. We have an abusive father. “Shape up or ship out.” is their attitude. What if we all took that seriously? I wonder what the bishops and Religious superiors would do if we all took it seriously and moved on to the SSPX. I don’t think they will let us go to the FSSP or ICKSP. let them find priests to staff their parishes, hospitals, and every other ministry without all of us. But I don’t think that will be necessary. Time is short. Nature will soon take it’s course and certain members of the hierarchy will have gone on to their eternal reward or punishment.
I like my diocesan TLM at a local parish, and don’t want to lose it. Nonetheless, if it comes to it, I suppose that I will yield and spend half of Sunday driving to and from a faraway “Ecclesia Dei group” apostolate. I’m not exactly thrilled about this possibility though. FWIW, when the San Diego diocese cancelled a couple TLMs, they literally moved to an Indian reservation, spitting distance from, yes, one of those famous Indian casino-resorts.
As for the neo-Agatha Christie letter, I have sincere gratitude toward all of the illustrious signers. I will pray for all of them. And if I ever said anything negative about any composition of Andrew Lloyd Webber… Abiuro penitus omnem errorem.
Time is short. Nature will soon take it’s course and certain members of the hierarchy will have gone on to their eternal reward or punishment.
I agree that the generation of “we we’re young priests during VII and we saw that the whole world (and Church) revolves around that revolution” is dying out. Good riddance.
But they have had total lockout control of Catholic (sic) schools, seminaries, and chanceries for most of 2 generations: they are reproducing themselves via indoctrination. And this pope has been intentionally picking as bishops and cardinals men like him (something prior popes did not do). I don’t see how mere time is going to have its way with these forces, it will take more heavy hitting than that.
I don’t see an “Ordinariate” solution as workable, but rather as a shiny rhetorical object to keep people distracted and from fussing.
I agree that the Ordinariate idea won’t be a very good solution. But it would be a better than nothing solution. Frankly (or Francisly) nothing the current pope would be willing to do is likely to be a GOOD solution.
And in any case, if people think that the (Anglican) Ordinariate is safe, they should think again: if you read Trad. Cust. (and the accompanying letter) carefully, you can see the writing on the wall for them too. Francis wants nothing left but the Novus Ordo.
In fact, people have understood his theories to endanger even the Eastern Rites of the uniate churches. My personal opinion is that a pope’s effort to eradicate those would founder and it would be “discovered” that the pope’s authority doesn’t extend to that. Which is why I think that making the Trad Latin Mass a separate rite from the Novus Mass (really it should be stated the other way around) would be a more solid long-term solution. But the pope almost certainly wouldn’t consider it. (And yes, it would bear all the same problems that Lurker pointed out with an Ordinariate approach).
We aren’t, under this pope, going to get a GOOD solution, like re-writing the Novus Ordo to do what the Council said, and to require ALL priests of the Latin Rite to know how to say the Vetus Ordo, and to expect all parishes to have at least one Vetus mass on Sunday, etc. All we can realistically look for are mitigated less bad outcomes than an outright abrogation applied to every bishop, priest, and lay person not to say or assist at a Vetus Ordo mass.
This is the plan. We either leave or submit
No priests? Unclear they care.
It is good for you and all your readers that you are back online. An observation, if I may be allowed. For a period of time before the crash, you seemed to have lost part of your magnificent and passionate zeal for for your mission to save and secure the Vetus Ordo and the one and only Holy Mother Church. HOWEVER, this posting erases my concern for you!
I have voiced my opinion several times in comments that the end game of the reformers was to find a Final Solution to erase 2,000 years of Catholic Tradition and remove the WORD INCARNATE, our Lord Jesus Christ and the Celebration of Holy Mass from any centrality while creating another likeable protestant cult.
Oh,yes! As you wrote, really tough times are coming. We who believe in the VO, the True Presence, the Sacraments, (prayers please for those like me who will need a priest of God, sooner than later, somewhere who has the faculties of Confession, Extreme Unction, the Apostolic Blessing, and Viaticum, all in Latin please), and all the blessed writings of the Apostles, Fathers, Doctors, Theologians, et. al. must do all we can in our spiritual power, and, if needed, prepare places for prayer, adoration, and Mass. Pray to St. Michael the Archangel for protection and to the Holy Spirit for guidance.
As a hobbyist woodworker and TLM devotee, are there any guidelines or documents as to the ideal features of a home altar? I made one over a decade ago, but it’s essentially just a single flat table, and I have in mind to create something a little nicer and appropriate.
I don’t know.
If it is the long term goal of some for the traditional Roman Rite to one day supplant the contemporary Roman Rite, sequestering it off into its own legal structure would make that nearly impossible. It would be “contained”.
I don’t know.
The dilemma that Rome has is that the most devoted Catholics, not all but most, attend the TLM. That tiny fraction of Catholics is not going to switch to the novus ordo if diocesean TLM goes away. They will seek out first the societies dedicated to the TLM and after that the SSPX. Rome can do nothing about the SSPX except excommunicate them. Their orders will still be valid and their sacraments still efficacious.
Remember at one time St. Joan of Arc suffered the same fate. She is now a saint. The same happened during the Arian heresy.
To coin a phrase from the sci-fi show Battlestar Galactica “All of this has happened before. All of this will happen again.” rings very true. The point being that if we know the truth we can persevere and not repeat the same mistakes again and again. “So say we all!”
Additional Consideration:
RE: The whole idea of shuttling TLM off to an Ordinariate or creating a sui juris Church.
One of a things that makes a particular church a particular church is its rite. If the Roman Church fully divests itself from TLM, is it still the Roman Church? Consider also that one of the characteristics of the Petrine Office is that the Office is held by that patriarch that celebrates the Roman Rite. If an Eastern Catholic was elected Pope, he would no longer be Eastern but his Rite Roman and that is the liturgy that he would celebrate. If the Roman Church fully divests itself from TLM such that its Rite is no longer Roman, is the Bishop of Rome still the Pope? If the Ordinate/sui juris Church is the locus of the Roman Rite, is its patriarch the Pope? Consider how Pope Francis has and works to diminish and do away with the very functions of the Petrine Office by not exercising them and formally setting them aside. No longer Pope by exercise decree, nor rite.
We pray, O almighty and eternal God, who through Jesus Christ has revealed thy glory to all nations, to preserve the works of your mercy, that your Church, being spread through the whole world, may continue with unchanging faith in the confession of your name.
We pray Thee, who alone are good and holy, to endow with heavenly knowledge, sincere zeal and sanctity of life, our chief bishop, the pope, the vicar of Our Lord Jesus Christ, in the government of his Church; our own bishop, all other bishops, prelates and pastors of the Church; and especially those who are appointed to exercise among us the functions of the holy ministry, and conduct your people into the ways of salvation…
https://www.archbalt.org/prayer-for-our-government-by-archbishop-john-carroll/
What my FSSP priest says, and a seven word summary of last week’s sermon: Keep Calm and Pray the Divine Office
@Lurker, the problem with your analysis is that the Vatican considers the Mass of Paul VI to be the Roman Rite, as a matter of fact they consider it the unique expression of that rite. One can argue that the “reforms” of 1969 made it really a different rite but at least on paper it is considered the same rite.
My younger sister and I are going to the Eucharistic Congress. She was a young child when the Latin Mass was canceled and wants to attend one while we’re in Indy. We both will take our St. Joseph Missals that our mother gave us in the 70’s.
Sadly, it turns out that the Latin Mass is being held at a church three-quarters of a mile away at 4:00 pm. Many of the afternoon sessions run until 4:00. I sent an email to the Congress and asked about transportation (or perhaps instant teleportation via guardian angels). They said no transportation to the Latin Mass is provided. Three-quarters of a mile can be a long walk in hot weather. We are not athletes.
More: We’ve received reminders to sign up for the breakout sessions but there are no links on their very confusing website. I finally emailed the Congress and learned how to sign up but all the sessions were filled by then. We’ve decided to go anyway and just walk into the sessions we want. If they stop us, we’re just going to say we’re nuns. Almost elderly ones, really. That should work, don’t ya think?
I see this really affecting the diocese that do not have groups like the FSSP in them. My former diocese of Portland ME being one. The only TLM there is a chaplaincy and a few priests who do first Saturday masses. I recently moved to MA where there is only a satellite chapel of the SSPX TLM Mass but I am only thirteen miles from an FSSP parish in NH where I attend Mass.
There are many people from ME who travel, as I did, to the Mass in NH some as long as a three hour drive.
It is both terrible and evil what is being done. The more they restrict the TLM the worse the Church and the world become. Yet they refuse to see or care. God help us!
@N5EDC:
I don’t recall the source, but dimensions I once saw were:
Height: 1.0 m (~40 in.)
Width: 1.75m (~60 in.)
Depth: 0.6m (~24 in.)
Something is telling me I red this on an old post here, but I don’t recall for sure.
Huh. So we’re looking at the possibility of an Ordinariate? One which theoretically would encompass FSSP, SSPX, ICKSP, Canons Regular, et al, who seek the traditional rite. So….Rome is theoretically admitting–however grudgingly–that SSPX is part of the Church? THAT will cause some shock waves!
As for being on a reservation and oppressed, …I think we’re already basically there. Many have been there since 1988, some of us since 2007. Seems to me this would be a good thing. If we’re semi-autonomous, …Traditiones Custodes remains, yet loses much of it’s violence. Traditional rite Catholics merely move away from their diocese and seek Ordinariate oversight. Many/most traditionalists and diocesan efforts have been (quite) uncomfortable with each other for quite some time. Such move as this would let us admit each other’s existence without making onerous demands of either side. Everyone wins. Especially if the Ordinariate would be allowed to open parishes depending on need.
…Though it may create some conflict between Ordinariate leadership and “normal” local ordinaries if current trends hold. Even that would certainly be better than a condition wherein “all is normal” within officialdom, even as each diocese shrinks, yet many traditionalist Catholics resort to Mass in basements and barns.
~JonPatrick
The statement in TC that the Mass of Paul VI is the “sole expression of the Roman Rite” is a false statement. There are plenty of other expressions of the Roman Rite, for example, the form used by the Anglican Ordinariate. We are not bound to accept false statements just because they are in a Vatican document.
Secondly, —>One can argue that the “reforms” of 1969 made it really a different rite but at least on paper it is considered the same rite<— It is the Vatican itself that is arguing that TLM and the NO are different Rites and that TLM is not a form of the Roman Rite. We should take them at their word that this is what they believe and "on their paper" it is not the same Rite. Should we take them at their word that this is objectively true? No. Historically, and by construction, the NO is a fork or a branch of TLM. It is a child object to the parent object that is TLM. If you delegitimize TLM you necessarily delegitimize the NO because it is dependent upon TLM.
—
~jflare29
I do not consider that this will happen. There is too much contention in Europe (especially France) and too many diocesean priests in the US that say TLM. Sticking FSSP, SSPX, ICKSP, Canons Regular, et al. in a box and giving them autonomy is going to upset a lot of continental bishops, and create a problem for diocesan priests who want to say both the NO and TLM.
I expect the forthcoming document to be more clear that TLM isn't a Roman Rite and those ordained to the Roman Rite, including bishops, do not have faculties to say Rites that they do not belong to (which is the case as it is). TLM groups will either implicitly or explicitly be prevented from ordaining new priests.
The Vatican doesn't want co-existence. That was Pope Benedict's approach which Pope Francis is very much opposed to.
Without Bishops an ordinariate is a short lived solution. If Rome bans bishops from using the pontificale then no ordinations, no confirmations.
We are right back to just the SSPX as they are the only structure that has their own bishops. Rome has never provided a Bishop to any of the other societies. FSSP and ICRSS are fully dependent on local Bishops.
“If Rome bans bishops from using the pontificale then no ordinations, no confirmations.”
A friend of mine was commenting on this last weekend. Must admit, …I think this worry a little too severe. Look, Francis, his Curia, and his bishops can find any number of ways to harass people. Yes unless Francis wants an open schism, he likely cannot utterly forbid the traditional Mass. If so, young men receive ordination and youth be confirmed in the Novus Ordo if needed. Carry on with the traditional rite in routine life. It’d be a bit ugly, it’d still be licit.
I do not think it wise to seek SSPX for a bishop to provide traditional rites. If you seek to keep in any sort of communion at all with your legitimate ruling authority, …it doesnt help if you jab him in the eye with your thumb.
I’m reminded of a line by Rocky Balboa:
“But it ain’t about how hard you hit. It’s about how hard you can GET hit and keep moving forward. How much you can take and keep moving forward. That’s how winning is done! ”
If Francis, his Curia, and his bishops should not antagonize people, neither should we respond with rebellious spirit. Let’s see what Francis will do before we start planning the revolt.
@jflare29
The sentiment is pragmatic, but all too often leads to the very thing happening that is trying to be avoided.
The only sacrament the SSPX has a problem with, that they have not been provided some path forward, is Episcopal ordination. Rome has said the Masses are valid. They have been dispensed for every other sacrament or provided for in some way. It is a tacit admission that everything the do is valid (maybe questionable licitness). Even the election of new bishops would be valid, but without approval they would be illicit and incur an automatic excommunication.
It is so strange that fellow Catholics are so wary of those who want nothing more than to worship in the same way as their grandparents and previous ancestors. Why is this?
Leaks from “trusted sources” have already said there is text that bans Bishops from using the pontificale. The current powers that be seem to want to elevate those whom they disagree with.
A.B. Vigano being excommunicated helps Rome how? If he was such a small and insignificant portion of the Church and he is believed to be an annoynance, then why not just ignore him. Make a statement such “He is free to his opinions, we disagree and will pray for him.” What we see is use of the most powerful weapon available in the legal books. Why? Maybe there is some some truth in what he said, even if some is a little “out there” or open for debate.
The wise man makes plans for the future so he is not caught off guard and can not provide for those whose care he is entrusted. For the others I am reminded of a fairy tale of a man with a pipe, a song, a promise, a failure to follow through on the promise and a punishment. We need to learn from history. Not repeat it.
“It is so strange that fellow Catholics are so wary of those who want nothing more than to worship in the same way as their grandparents and previous ancestors. Why is this?”
Not so strange as you might think. Many in the modern Church have not learned what Vatican II actually said. They thus tend to look at traditionalists with a jaundiced eye, thinking we’ve lost our marbles.
Besides, as demonstrated by people life my father, ..some of our grandparents and previous ancestors weren’t so thrilled as we might expect.
Today, TLM attended for first time in ten months. Trying to get last few ‘licks’ in before Jorge scuttles the bark. 25% greater attendance. The young priest does a good job. Women, old and young, in mantillas. Very young families there, too.
I vaguely remember the second confiteor from the 1958 Missal/Mass. Served hundreds of TLM through high school. The shine has never gone off.
Holy Spirit, come to our rescue.
When Francis took over, his approach was to leave those saying the TLM alone–their numbers would gradually wither. When he found out that their numbers were increasing, the quarantine strategy emerged.
Re putting those attending TLM masses on a reservation: Maybe they’ll strike oil or build casinos.