I have thoughts about Charlie Kirk.
In no order.
- I constantly say that we should not canonize the dead. We should pray for them and not presume, even when manifestly holy people die with the sacraments and Apostolic Parson. I hesitate about the language of martyrdom. However, we may be seeing a vox populi moment. If Charlie was not formally a Catholic, reports are he was in motion. Was he a martyr in the Catholic technical sense? That’s not an easy argument, lacking more evidence about whether or not he desired to become a Catholic. However, non-Catholics were “martyred” with St. Charles Lwanga… and for a related reason.
- I hadn’t followed him much, because I thought he was mostly involved in politics. I didn’t know how he had evolved. Since his murder, I’ve see many videos. Amazing young man.
- Over the week and more I’ve had a hundred conversations in which Charlie Kirk came up, mostly with older people … like me. Inevitably the phrase, often from me, came up, “this feels like a turning point”. Tonight I’m watched the – let’s say it – rival in Arizona. It suddenly hit me – am I thick or what? – “Turning Point”. Duh.
- I watched the speech by Erika. I’m a pretty hardened guy with, as one of the Chieftans put it, with a heart as cold as a frog on a mountain. When she forgave Charlies murderer, I emitted a sob. Please don’t tell anyone. I am once again lacking a pulse. At least a regular pulse.
- A challenge has been issued from the enemy, which aims directly at what the Enemy has been trying to destroy. We need men who act like men and women who act like women. Put that before the Enemy and instantly the frothing and gnashing like Moria goblins begins. That’s the proof.
- I’m a pretty simple guy: God, family, country. Live your vocation with grace and elbow grease. Isn’t that what he was doing?
- It might be good for people to attend CCW classes. If for nothing else that the training teaches situational awareness and de-escalation.
- Erika said that he left her notes asking “How can I serve you better?”
- I believe that Charlie would eventually have become a Catholic.
- I hope that Charlie’s faith challenge, and Erika’s talk, will place the best kind of seed in Pres. Trump’s heart. There are marriage issues, after all. That’s not a political issue, but being also in the state of grace might increase what Archbp. Caroll said: “that his administration may be conducted in righteousness and be eminently useful to your people over whom he presides”.
- Rubio and Vance would make good presidents.
- Charlie started his campus “Prove Me Wrong” in Madison, where I was. Where I was before I wasn’t… thanks for that.
- I think that it was way out of his lane when POTUS said, “Sorry, I can’t stand my opponent” at a rally for Charlie Kirk after Erika said “I forgive him.” There wasn’t a lot of applause for him on that.
- I was annoyed that POTUS veered into politics. Sure, I know that he repeats and repeats and repeats so that eventually sound bites get even to the left. But… damn. Really?
- Above the above, yes, POTUS talked about MAGA, but so did Charlie. The topic was not off limits. Still. Was this the moment? People were quieter than for other speakers. I don’t think he read the room. It wasn’t an campaign stop.
- I believe that POTUS sorrow for Charlie was much deeper than the loss of a political ally.
- One of the speakers at the “revival” in Arizona said that in the last few days, he has spoken more about Jesus than he ever did before.
- There are things POTUS says that I don’t like, but he is getting things done. Would that he also had the support of sanctifying grace. I don’t presume to judge the ways of God, but I think we can be skeptical.
- “Medal of Freedom. Absolutely. At least Rush got it before he died.
- It was good for POTUS to show with a lot of the administration. That’s wasn’t only politics. It was clearly personal.
- I think POTUS should have let Erika be the last speaker. She came out at the end, but still.
- Was Charlie a martyr? Evidence is still coming out, so to speak, but martyrs are killed because of hatred of the faith or because of some aspect integral to the faith. For example, if you defend your chastity and you are murdered for it, you are a martyr.
- I appreciated seeing this rally and the public witness to Jesus. Seeds are being scattered. I trust that iron is being put into male backbones and other things.
- I couldn’t watch chess videos tonight.
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He was murdered bec he was slowly evolving his thoughts on Zionism and the ongoing genocide in Gaza. Not sure if they qualifies for martyrdom, especially when the pope is extolling the virtues of Tikkun Olam.
“There are marriage issues”
A lot fewer than there were previously. IiNM, Pres Trump and First Lady Melania could now have their marriage “blessed” since Trump’s first wife, Ivana, is deceased and his second marriage to Marla Maples would be presumptively invalid. If Melania has no living former husband then they would now both be free to marry in the eyes of the Church. (I understand that Charlie and Erika Kirk also had their marriage convalidated in the Church)
Also, back in 2015-16 when I was still VERY skeptical about Trump, Rubio was among my favorites among his GOP primary rivals. I wouldn’t mind seeing him get another crack at the White House eventually, or have him be Vance’s running mate
This reflects my own thoughts quite well. I am more settled that this is more a political martyrdom than one in odium fidei.
He was murdered because he spoke the truth about transgender issues. He was murdered because the truth was deemed hateful to his killer.
That’s in hatred of the faith, however you couch it.
People dance on his grave for telling the truth about why we need the right to bear arms, and saying that the ability to defend our rights comes with risk. But that wasn’t why he was killed; he was killed for witnessing the truth about gender.
I’m glad Erika took the high road. It had a salutary effect on the conversation.
@bigtex
What is your evidence for that statement?
“I read it on the internet” isn’t sufficient.
Thanks for sharing this, Father. I never followed Charlie very closely, but was impressed by how he was willing to walk into the lion’s den and actually engage people in debate. bigtex: Sounds like you are blaming “the Jews” for Charlie’s death. Don’t believe what Candace Owens (who is sorely confused on the issue) has to say and all the garbage about Bill Ackman, etc. “pressured” Charlie to bow down to Netanyahu. Lots of bad things happen in the world and not as a result of Jewish influence.
At least POTUS did not announce that he had ordered the bombing of another Venezuelan boat in honor of Charlie. While I did not see the whole memorial, I did see the part that was no doubt the most serious and important for going forward: Tucker Carlson telling the crowd, and all of us, that politics will not save us, only repentance will do so. He sounded like his recent podcast guest, Fr. Josiah Trenham, the Orthodox priest in Southern California.
“I have thoughts about Charlie Kirk.
In no order … ”
We all do.
But there was nothing wrong with the order of these particular thoughts.
“I think that it was way out of his lane when POTUS said, “Sorry, I can’t stand my opponent” at a rally for Charlie Kirk after Erika said “I forgive him.” There wasn’t a lot of applause for him on that.”
“I was annoyed that POTUS veered into politics. Sure, I know that he repeats and repeats and repeats so that eventually sound bites get even to the left. But… damn. Really?”
100% agree. I’m not a Trump hater, but the man truly has the tact and a sense of decorum on the same level as my 4-year-old….though that’s probably not giving my 4-year-old enough credit.
I don’t think his situation qualifies for martyrdom. Based on info on the gunman’s motives, it was more LGBTQ related than specifically anti-Christ. I appreciate that Charlie Kirk was not afraid to speak about Christ publicly but I feel he was seen more as a political person than a fully religious public figure, therefore his death is more of a political martyrdom in my opinion.
Like Fr. Z, I’m generally an unsentimental type who found myself borderline lachrymose watching yesterday’s memorial as well as at various other points in the days following the Kirk assassination. I think the term is aptronym (or aptonym) for someone whose name is particularly well-suited. Abp. Cordileone is one such man. And Charlie Kirk (“church”) was another. Though not formally Catholic, the young man embodied the teachings of Jesus Christ. And I agree with Fr. Z, that this feels like a turning point. It has been a great Rorschach test with different people viewing and reacting to the same events wildly differently. Sadly, many of liberal friends and acquaintances have lifted their veils and exposed hearts of darkness in recent days.
Remember Ronald Reagan said, If you support much of what I say that’s great!”
“ If you support everything, you’re crazy.”
I love President Trump. We have many in our lives that repeat themselves. I am one of them. I wouldn’t want His job or the Holy Father’s
On Charlie Kirk and Catholicism, His Priest said he was interested in Converting. He had a valid Baptism. I hope he made it. I hope I will too.
When we look at the martyrs of the early Church, a good chunk of them were martyred by functionaries and middle managers of the Roman Empire, who were simply doing their job and applying a legal dictate rather than any sort of animosity or hatred.
My point is that it is a mistake to look at martyrdom as involving being killed by an individual who is in the throes of some sort of unhinged passion of hatred, specifically towards the Catholic Faith.
I don’t know much about Charlie, but I do know that his political action sprang from his faith in Christ, so that what he was doing was because he was a follower of Christ.
I don’t know much about Charlie’s assassin (which is the proper term to be used) other than that he was motivated because he felt that Charlie’s activities threatened his trans lover (male to female) and roommate and their way of life.
I do know that homosexuality is intrinsically evil and necessarily involves hatred of God.
So it seems to me that Charlie was murdered out of hatred of God.
Whether or not that qualifies as martyrdom in the salvific sense, it is at least martyrdom in a sense greater than Socrates’ martyrdom.
You hit all the notes, Father. I would only add — the event could not qualify in my mind any sort of appropriate funeral. Of course, I am a diehard Roman Catholic, but despite the graces of the event, it was missing the essential committing of Mr. Kirk’s soul to Christ. The “celebration of life” thing just doesn’t cut the mustard. A pep rally doesn’t do the trick.
A corollary is the interminable length of the event, and the endless ruminations of individuals about an individual. I remember people complaining about the length of a good long High Mass. Our Holy Thursday, Good Friday and Easter Vigil even in the Vetus Ordo do not approximate the taxing length of this send off. The liturgical sense across the spectrum of the Christian observance of Apostolic origin is proved wise and of common sense once again. I once heard a priest say regarding homilies “If you can’t say it in ten minutes you have nothing to say.” There is a wisdom there.
All that said, well done indeed, Mr. Kirk, a stellar man and we were blessed to have him among us and now, hopefully with Our Lord in Heaven. May he rest in eternal peace.
Good observations and thoughts, Fr Z. Charlie Kirk’s murder has made a global impact. I can watch none of it, too distressing on so many levels. The rejoicing by the Left has revealed their hate-filled, demonic hearts. Anyone who even minimizes the evil done is in great spiritual peril. I admit it’s shocking to see it done by “good people”. Bill Bennett’s piece on Charlie Kirk is well worth reading.
I knew who Charlie was, but thought him a young person’s figure, which I am not. I was just grateful for him. To me, I know this may sound dramatic, but I don’t think it is, he now seems a Christ-figure, and not due to the fanfare. He was a devoutly Christian man who cared about the good, who loved Jesus and Truth. He brought the gospel message about objective reality to young people to use actual democracy in a free exchange of ideas to win them over to Truth. They shot out his carotid for his words, then rejoiced. He brought the gospel, lived for it, died for it. In my limited eyes he’s a martyr, as I said, even so noble his life and death it’s Christ-like. We will never be the same after this. Good came, and Evil silenced it with brutality. I agree a million fires have been lit in the hearts of men and women.
I believe the Left is losing their power and is using murder to cause so many deaths and so much pain the conservatives, regular Americans, will raise a cry for what the Left really wants earnestly, what allows them to Marxist march across the world in their tyranny unopposed, gun control. If only enough innocent children at prayer in churches or schools, good men trying to bring Truth, citizens riding trains and living lives, if they die randomly due to madmen, gun control will be clamored for at last. Then, they have what they need.
They are wrong. We must never, under any circumstances, and certainly not these, allow ourselves to disarm while these monsters infest the world, or ever.
President Trump, the pragmatic, goals oriented great man, the singular entity he is, has a gigantic heart and thought of Charlie Kirk “like a son”. His heart is broken and he is unafraid to go after bad guys. He realizes the spiritual battle and temporal battle. He knows it plays out in the political world, that he has made his life’s purpose and given so much to. Im so grateful for the man who saved us all from hard tyranny and real mayhem the left brings Ill forgive him an occasional miscue. His own heart is obvious, he wears it on his sleeve. God bless him always and God rest the soul of Charlie Kirk.
@Benedict Joseph: I share your sentiments entirely. A memorial service (such as it was) is like a funeral followed by eulogies, but without the funeral. I’ve been gratified to see so many priests offer Requiem Masses for his soul.
Despite the Revival Moment, there seems to be a simmering discontent between Catholics and Evangelicals, with the latter deeply resenting any references to CK’s interest in conversion. My concern in the future is twofold concerning Erika Kirk. I pray she doesn’t neglect her ballast, which is her sacramental life; secondly, having already received dozens of fund-raising letters seeking to monetise the grief, I pray she finds room to process the personal loss (to herself and family) despite throwing herself into leading TP-USA. Amy Welborn has someworthy cautionary words in that department.
There is nothing that can compare with a Catholic funeral Mass, reverently celebrated according to the rubrics, as well as a vigil service, and prayers at the grave. Things that are appropriate at a wake or a reception are not always appropriate at the Mass.
I am sure the marathon length service had a certain appeal. I didn’t watch it, but I read about it. I am also familiar with various kinds of Protestant funerals, and especially the large gatherings for “memorials” of celebrities and public figures. Fortunately, this one kept a large part of its focus on the worship of God and the proclamation of Christian faith. And it helped to fill the very human need to grieve, and to find mutual support for the family and for the country.
But without the prayers for the soul of the departed loved one, without the solemn Catholic ritual, without the blessing of the body and the blessing of the grave, without the Holy Eucharist, there is something missing, something very different.
If the purpose of a funeral is not to intercede for the faithful departed, other things rush in to fill the vacuum.
Many Catholics take these large gatherings for public figures as a model for what should happen at a family funeral. Hence, endless speeches, “eulogies” and “canonizations” take center stage, and the desire for a public spectacle intrudes into the liturgical rites and the liturgical music.
We need some good examples of Catholic liturgy in the public sphere. And leave the speeches at the wake.
We need some good examples of Catholic liturgy in the public sphere. And leave the speeches at the wake.
I was rather disappointed that the Catholic funeral for the Duchess of Kent wasn’t televised in some capacity.
“I was rather disappointed that the Catholic funeral for the Duchess of Kent wasn’t televised in some capacity.”
Yes. Exactly.
It might have been the kind of thing that is needed. Or at lea st I hope so.
Too often, celebrity funerals, even Catholic celebrity funerals, are not examples of good Catholic liturgy and theology.
The funeral for Justce Antonin Scalia in 2016 was a good antidote for the typical thing we have come to expect. But we need more of this.
There was a Catholic funeral in 2015 for a former governor that included a 45 minute speech by his son, also a governor. And other Catholics begin to see this as normal.
There was a Rosary campaign for Charlie this past summer, and he publicly honored the Mother of God before his death. She only needs a subatomic particle’s worth of good will on anyone’s part to obtain their salvation. I think there are good grounds to hope for him.
But the story of his brutal, public murder in front of his wife and two little kids is so horrible and so heartbreaking that I will frankly be glad to see it recede into the background. And I didn’t even listen to his show or follow him at all.
I didn’t follow him avidly, but I did see a number of his videos. He wasn’t right on every last point, but boy he sure was right on many. He might have put a foot wrong here and there with some hate-mongering yelling opponent, but mostly he engaged, and more than that he mostly got many, many people to THINK instead of just sloganizing. He often got people to change their minds, and I have to think that this is a sign of grace following him around, because it’s really, really hard to change peoples’ minds.
Hearing of his assassination hurt. Not because of all the good he “might have done”, not because he was such a great spokesman for the right, and a great hope for our country, but because he was good, and was attacked for being good. I pray for his soul.
Mr. Kirk was reportedly closer to entering the Church than his public comments showed. From Angelus News https://angelusnews.com/voices/kirk-conversion/
“…a personal exchange between Charlie Kirk and a Catholic bishop who happens to be my brother: Bishop Joseph Brennan of Fresno. The bishop has given me permission to divulge the content of that conversation.
A little more than a week before his murder, Kirk attended a pro-life prayer breakfast in Visalia, California, which is in the Diocese of Fresno. The bishop was among those in attendance and had a brief, private moment with Kirk.
It was there that Kirk told the bishop about his Catholic wife and children and how he attended Mass with them. He punctuated this conversation with ‘I love my Catholic pastor.’
As they were parting to attend the more public portion of the prayer breakfast, Kirk mentioned speculation regarding his contemplating entering the Catholic Church, saying: ‘I’m this close.'”